How therapist training can hold you back as a private practitioner, with Lindsay Bryan-Podvin

Jane: Hi, and welcome back and if this is your first visit, it's really great to have you here. And if you are new, you've joined us at a great time because I've got a very special guest, Lindsay Brian Podin with me. Now, Lindsay is a biracial financial therapist and wellness expert. She's a speaker and she's also the author of the book.

's a practising L M S W since: 2012

Interesting. Right, and she's very knowledgeable. She's got a degree in sociology, a master's in social work with certificates in financial, social work, and financial therapy too. She lives with her partner and their dog on the occupied land of the Anishinabe, which is also known as Michigan. Now, we talked about such an interesting subject. You know, we talk, we're talking about how our training as therapists can actually hold us back as private practitioners. So we cover in this, you know, how our training can make it difficult to trust ourselves.

We look at how our training can make it hard for us to feel comfortable marketing ourselves. And I wonder if you've ever felt that we share some tips to cultivate self-trust. Both inside and outside the therapy room. And we also talk about the benefits of a niche and also my, you know, my seedling niche, which is something that I do with my members.

So we talk about how that can help you to attract the right sort of clients with the sorts of issues that you feel deeply passionate about. And we also look at how to feel safer in our marketing messages. So I think you're gonna like this. Let's dive in.

so Lindsay, thank you so much for coming today, as always, as you know, I love having a chat with you. And the reason I contacted you was basically, I've been contemplating doing this podcast for a long time, and I mean, months I've spoken to counselling friends and I've discussed it and I've been all around the houses with it, but something just didn't fit with me, but.

When I was sort of checking you out as I do, I saw that you'd written a blog on a very, very similar thing, and so that's why I contacted you to say, would you fancy coming on? Let's just have a, rather than me try to, you know, make it into a podcast. Let's just have a chat about it and see if it just helps people to, you know, think about things differently.

Lindsay: Yeah, I'm, I'm thrilled to be here talking about self-trust and hiding and marketing. These are some of the things that really light me up, and I think counsellors are so well equipped to do this, but they get in their own way and it's really not their fault. So yeah. This will be a fun conversation.

Jane: Yeah, and I think it, for me, it all comes down to training, the sort of training that we have.

We have very intense training. Mm-hmm. Obviously, what we're going to be talking about is a lot to do with oh, the, the way we market ourselves and we're getting comfortable with the way that we ma market ourselves. But I think sometimes the way that we market ourselves is difficult because we've been told that.

In the counselling room, it's all about the client and it's not about you. You have to not self-disclose. You have to be kind of a bit of a, a blank slate. You know, you have to consider what's in the counselling room, what's on the walls. Sometimes people pick, and consider what they wear, and. The fact that we are taught that we have to hide ourselves in that respect and not really put our personalities out there can then become something that can hold us back when it comes to trying to attract clients.

Hmm.

Lindsay: Yeah, it's, and it's so interesting this concept of the Blank Slate therapist that has been taught to all of us, because we know that none of us are blank slates. And to pretend that our clients think we are blank slates, I also think is, you know, doing them a disservice. Right. When, a client comes into the room, either virtually or in person, Jane, Within a moment they can tell we're not a blank slate.

You know, you and I both present as women, it's pretty obvious what our race is, what our age is. there are things that we just simply cannot hide. And so to pretend that we aren't who we are, I find it to be so, so strange. And nowadays, more and more clients are. Searching for therapists who have some sort of understanding of their lived experience, right?

It's becoming more and more common for clients who are a part of the queer community to seek out therapists who are also a part of that community or for, clients of colour to also be seeking out other cl, other clinicians of colour, or for clients who are going through. Divorce to find a therapist or a counsellor who has that lived experience.

And it's not about us as therapists or counsellors turning into the patient, right? We don't want that. But it's about saying with a nod and with a look like, I get you. I've been there. I understand in a way that being a blank slate just doesn't do. And we talk so much about rapport building and empathy and trust with our clients, but a lot of that just comes from how they feel.

In the space with us. And a lot of that has to do with us not being a blank slate.

Jane: Absolutely. And I think the fact as well, I, I just think when we think about the history of, of therapy and counselling, and I know, I mean, from what I've, I'm not, and I'm not an expert in this, but what I do know is that having therapy, having counselling is relatively new.

I think may be the fifties or so. Mm-hmm. You, you probably know more than me. So it's relatively new and It wasn't a thing. Certainly in the UK going out to get therapy is very, very new. It's not even mainstream yet. It's getting there. Mm-hmm. It's now getting that, you know, everybody's aware of therapy.

The stigma's starting to go a little bit. But part of that is the fact that people are now aware of it. Now we have loads more therapists. So when I first went to therapy, I was in my early twenties, which was a long time ago. I'm an old person now, but you know, I'm, I'm in my fifties now, so my, in my early twenties was, you know, quite a long time ago.

There was no option who I went to. You know, the, the person that said about going to therapy, I had one name that I could go to private therapist that it, back in that time there was the yellow pages. Mm-hmm. And if you looked in the Yellow Pages, there was probably, you know, one or two therapists in your area.

When you think that, you know, compare that to now when you look at online directories in your area, there can be hundreds of people. So it's not a case of somebody wants to go and get some counselling and chooses a counsellor. It's a lot more sophisticated now. People have an, people have understanding of a bit more about what they want, what they need, rather than just a counsellor, any counsellor to, to deal with anything.

Do you know what I mean? Yeah,

Lindsay: yeah. I, I absolutely do. I think for so long, Because there were so few counsellors and because people didn't really understand what it was for. A generalist was fine. Mm-hmm. Because that's all we had. But I think it's so important to say, I'm in fact a specialist and I specialized in working with this particular niche.

I think, Jane, your idea of a seedling niche is so powerful for marketing purposes because when we say, oh, I'm a counsellor and I'm trained in a little bit of this and that and the other thing. How is a person who is in need of help and wants support, how are they supposed to pick you out of the crowd versus if you're clear on who you are, who you help and how you help them, that also makes it easier for them.

We want the counselling experience to be kind and clear from the beginning, and I think that does start with our marketing.

Jane: Absolutely. And also, I mean, the other side of that is, That as a private counsellor, you know, running your own business, you can choose to work with the people and the issues and the things that really fire you up.

Mm-hmm. You feel really passionate about that. You mm-hmm. Really love learning about, you know, you, you have your your bookcase is full of books on that subject, not because you have to read it, but because you're really interested in it. Mm-hmm. So therefore it makes sense, doesn't it to. Bring as many people as, as that into your, into your private practice and work with the things that really you love to work with.

Lindsay: Mm-hmm. And it, it's, it's also beneficial for the clients. Again, I think about, I. When, we talk often when we're talking to other counsellors, we're talking about the training that we have or the interventions that we do. But research again and again, Jane shows that it really doesn't matter what training or expertise you have, it's whether or not you are a good fit for the client, and the client feels safe with you.

So you can have as many certifications on the wall as you want. But if they don't feel connected to you, they're not going to be able to engage in that type of intervention. And I love what you said about the things that we're excited to do. Those are also the clients who will see that spark within us.

You know, you know me, I love financial therapy. I love talking about money, anxiety, and financial shame, and practising financial self-care. And those are the types of clients who I will do my best work with. Right, so it's, it's this win-win when we can say, I trust myself to serve a particular client population.

And I trust that when I'm clear with them about who I am and what I do in my marketing, they'll be able to find me.

Jane: Yeah, because I mean, the therapeutic relationship, the therapeutic alliance is in all the different modalities. It's, it's key, isn't it? It's, it's, it's vital. It's really important, and I think that by putting yourself out there and being attractive to.

Those sorts of people that you want to work with, that it's gonna help that therapeutic alliance. You know, they're gonna start to get a sense of you. And it's not that you are sharing anything about, anything personal in the same way as if they have their first session with you. They'll get a sense of you just by the way you wear your hair or what you are wearing on your, you know, what clothes you're wearing or mm-hmm.

Or all of that. They'll just get a sense of you and if they get a sense of you through their marketing. Then they're gonna be more open to the, the, the therapy that they do. It's gonna, it's gonna make it easier. You know, it's a little bit like mm-hmm. That difference between the sort of CL counsellor, sorry, the sort of client that comes, that is like walking through Tris really hard work and the sort of counsellor that, sorry, the sort of client, I'm getting my words fixed up.

The sort of client that turns up where, They almost feel like, oh, I'm sure we could be friends if we weren't in this situation. You know, it just kind of flows and everything just works a little bit better.

Lindsay: I love that you said that one. an Instagram reel that I have that probably has the most views I I've ever had.

I guess I would say it kind of went vaguely viral, was an Instagram reel where I shared the, the best, worst thing about my practice because I'm incredibly clear on the types of clients that I serve. Is that I feel like in a different world we could be best friends, right? That to me is such a gift to be so clear on the type of person that I work with, that I genuinely care about them, right?

I don't have to manufacture compassion for them. I don't have to manufacture positive regard. I genuinely. Ajo them in a platonic way. Yes. And I want them to be a, as good as they can be, and I can see their potential for coming into themselves. Yeah.

Jane: Yeah. I mean, when we talk about the no, like and trust factor, don't we?

Mm-hmm. So anybody who's, who doesn't know what that is, the no, like, and trust factor is where people buy from or use the services of people that they know, like, and trust. Mm-hmm. So if you are out there doing your marketing and people do get a sense of you and they start to like you and to trust you.

Then that means they're gonna be more likely to go to you and they're gonna have that trust. They're already going to feel connected. I've got a friend, who. Was talking about this with me, I'm sure we did a podcast about it. Sarah, Sarah Deink. I'll share the details. And she was saying that because she is so prevalent on Instagram that when people come to her, she doesn't really have an initial call with them anymore cuz they've already decided they've seen enough of her.

They've listened to her podcast. They've had a look at her, YouTube channel. They've read her book. You know, she's all, she's all over the place. Bless her. And they've got such a good, sense of her that they don't have to, that the meeting her, it's all, it's almost like they've already met her at

that

Lindsay: point.

Yes, yes. I, I love that. And what, what came to mind when you were talking about the know, like, and trust was how this conversation even got started was that you were trying to figure out how can we help. Counsellors trust themselves enough to put themselves out there in marketing. And I think that's where a lot of us get stuck.

You know, we're trained to be blank slates. We're trained to question our judgment. We're trained to underemphasize our thoughts and feelings and insights because it's immediately labelled as countertransference. And I'm not, I'm not here saying that countertransference isn't real. It absolutely is. But I think we're so fearful.

Of making a mistake that then we just don't do anything at all, both in the clinical room, especially when we're starting out, but certainly when it comes to marketing, we don't trust ourselves enough to be able to say, I feel comfortable disclosing this thing about how I work in my practice, or I feel comfortable sharing a little bit about my background and with your friend who.

Who has clients coming to her saying, I feel like I already know you. She's obviously been able to figure out what feels safe enough to self-disclose about who she is and what she likes, and how she approaches the therapy room to have clients saying, ah, that's exactly the type of person that I wanna work with.

Jane: And the interesting thing is she doesn't disclose a lot of herself personally, as in she doesn't talk about what she's doing, where she's going, you know, whether she's in a relationship or not. None of that's discussed. It's just her personality. Yeah. And the way that she talks about things and her passion of course always comes out.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Lindsay: And that's exactly it. When we have, that ability to say, this is what I love to do, that shines through.

Jane: Yeah. Mm-hmm. I'm just, I know we've got a very similar story, and it just reminds me, I'm, I'm thinking about, you know, we're talking about how our training can impact the work that we do.

Mm-hmm. And sometimes in a negative way when it comes to marketing, and I know that we've both got a very similar story, and maybe you'll say yours as well, but I can remember my, my very first. The very first person I had on placement, and of course I was absolutely terrified. And when it was time for them, they must have known.

They must have known. They must have picked up. And when they were about to leave, they asked me a personal question. It was something about holiday, maybe. Yeah. Can't remember exactly. It was really banal. Yeah. And I can remember thinking, oh my God, I'm not supposed to say anything. Great. I'm not supposed to say anything.

So I sort of just, It makes me cringe now, but I said, ‘oh, I wonder what you're asking’. Oh my God. Oh my God.

Lindsay: It's, I know, terrible. I know, I know. And, and that the, I love that, example because I had a similar thing happen of somebody had asked me very directly my age and, you know, our training equips us to default and to diverge any sort of personal question.

And so rather than saying, you know, I'm in my, you know, this was. 12, 13 years ago when I was doing my, my clinicals. and I'm, I'm fortunate to say I present quite young, so if you imagine me 12 years ago, I did probably look quite young, so to say, you know, why are you asking that? Or, or what makes you think that?

Versus just saying, you know, I'm in my mid to late twenties and, and I hope that's okay, you know, something. But instead of pretending like. I'm not gonna let you guess my age. Like it is so silly. It's so silly. And even in that question with your client saying, oh, where are you going on holiday? Or What are you doing over this holiday break?

Rather than saying like, oh, I'm just gonna spend some time with my dogs, or I'm gonna be gardening. That would be actually lovely rapport-building. But instead, we're trained to say, don't ask me that. Why are you asking? Yeah. And it's like it, that's a part of rapport building. Yeah. Is doing a little bit of this, not too much self-disclosure, but just normalizing that we're people outside of the therapy room

Jane: because it is just normal conversation.

Yeah. You know, it's normal conversation. It's just considered polite. So if you close somebody down and say, oh, I can't tell you that. It makes them feel awful. Awful. Isn't it awful? Yeah. I mean, I'm sure I've heard of a situation where a client came with some flowers on the last session and they, the counsellor just didn't know what to do with them.

It was like, should I accept them? It's like I, and I think we, it's, it's not because we're bad counsellors, it's because They just wanna do the right thing. Mm-hmm. They've been taught that this is the right thing, and therefore that is what they're going to do. Yeah.

I think, what was the phrase you used for this? You said it at the start?

Lindsay: Mm oh, just that, that we, what did I say at the start? Just, just that we're, we're constantly seeking reassurance from others that it's okay for us to do what we want to do.

Jane: Yeah, you had a phrase. I, I can't remember what it was though.

I can't remember what it was that self me what it was. Oh yeah. Self-trust trusts. Yes, yes, yes. I think that's lovely self-trust. Yeah. And that's kind of, trusting instinct, isn't it?

Lindsay: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I think we have to, as, as counsellors, will learn how to strengthen our self-trust so that we can market ourselves right.

Think about the number of counsellors you've seen who spend months, and that's not an exaggeration. Going, should I use this logo or that logo? Should I use this font or that font? Should I use Squarespace or Wix? Like, right. They spend so much time on these little teeny details that six months have gone by and they haven't even done step one.

Of marketing. and so I think it's really important for us to get comfortable making mistakes, right? Like I know that just sent a lot of anxious clinicians going, I can't possibly make a mistake in my marketing. But taking that first step and seeing what happens, pick, choose the first logo. Run with it a little bit, see how it feels to have it up on your website.

See what it feels like to have it in your email Signature. And maybe you realize like, oh, I, I don't actually love the way that this looks. Or actually, those colours look beautiful and then we can take the next step. But so often we are ricocheting in our heads about what's better or what's worse, that we never actually take the first step.

I love in your recent email you called it, Procrast to branding. Yes. It was so good, right? You would do a new logo here, or a new business card or a new postcard instead of just saying like, this is who I am and this is what I do, and this is how I help people. We spend so much time behind our screens trying to get these minute details right, rather than being okay.

Making a logo that's like, not that great, but it's also not the end of the world. Yeah,

Jane: yeah. It's classic self-sabotage, isn't it? Absolutely. Absolutely. I, I have done all of those things. Mm-hmm. I have literally done all of those things. Mm-hmm. But the, the thing is, with a logo, you can spend hours, you can spend, well, you can get one made up for hundreds of pounds.

Mm-hmm. I can almost guarantee that six months later you'll hate it. Yeah. And you want a new one. That's the way it is. So I, you know, trying to get it perfect well's, there's no such thing as perfect in that situation because six months down the line you'll have changed your mind. Absolutely. That's, that's to me, that's just the way it is.

Yeah. Yeah.

Lindsay: Absolutely. And I think I. Changing your mind is an okay thing, whether it comes to your seedling niche or your logo. We're so worried about having it right and perfect, and we imagine that it's going to be, you know, this, this immovable thing, versus acknowledging that things will change over time.

My niche as I, you know, we chatted before we, we hit record has changed over time and I imagine it will continue to change and I think that's a beautiful thing. It gets more detailed or it gets more broad, or the audience that I'm speaking to tweaks and changes over time. And to me that's really beneficial because it means that I'm continuing to do the type of work that lights me up, which helps to make me a good clinician for the types of clients who I'm meant to work with.

Jane: Yeah. And there's nothing worse than being bored in your own business. Oh, nothing worse. You have nothing worse to be able to have that fire. Yeah. To be really passionate about getting out there and doing what it is you do, because otherwise you, and it's so unfair.

Lindsay: It's so unfair to a client. Can you imagine sitting across from a, a counsellor who's bored?

That's awful. That's so unkind. Yeah. Right. We don't, we don't wanna do that to ourselves, but we certainly don't wanna do it to clients. Yeah. We don't have clients that we're watching the clock on. Yeah.

Jane: That's awful. Absolutely. Yeah. Awful. I mean, something else that that sort of comes to mind when I think about how trading might hold us back is this idea as well that.

Oh, and again, it's one of those things where I understand it, and in the counselling room I can see that that's what, but it's that idea that you are not the expert. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I can understand in the counselling room that it's like, Ralph, you are the expert on you. I'm here to help to sift through the stuff that you are gonna give me.

Mm-hmm. So we can find something that feels right for you. I can completely get that. That's, I'm totally behind that. But when it comes to marketing, you practice. You've got to let people know that you are, you don't have to say expert. I mean, I can understand that they don't want to say expert. You've got to let them know though, through what you are sharing, that you are an authority in it.

You understand that you know about it, you are interested in it, and you've got to let that through.

Lindsay: Mm. Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's a key to being able to market your practice is to say, this is my unique skillset. Right. You, it's, it's also really unnerving. You know, you and I have both looked for therapists or counsellors on our own.

There's nothing worse than landing on a website that is vague. I don't trust that you can help me make a change if I don't even understand what it is that you do, right? Like, yeah, we're, again, we're just doing such a disservice to these clients, and I think it's so important to just put out that niche, put out that tagline, put out that website, and get some real world feedback, right?

We can't know if our niche statement or our website or our marketing is working. If all it does is hang out in a password protected, you know, website or if we never publish our name on a, on a therapist directory or we never actually print those business cards, those things will work 0% of the time.

So long as they are hidden.

Jane: Yeah, absolutely. Or to think that all the other counsellors know, the, the best thing to do and kind of copy what everybody else

Lindsay: is doing. Oh. Yeah, there's nothing worse than I say this - I'm going to hurt some people's feelings and I don't mean to do this. I mean this with the most genuine of care.

So many therapists' websites lead with Welcome. I'm so glad you're here. I'm a warm, empathic, and compassionate counsellor ready to help you on your journey. Those are all nice words, Jane, but they don't really mean anything. Yeah, right. We hope that at baseline all of the counsellors have compassion and empathy and are kind and are warm, but how can you actually help me?

That's what I wanna know if I'm a client. Seeking out help. I wanna know really clearly what it is that you do. And I think, if you're trying to figure out how can I make a decision, I, I think it's helpful to go, how am I currently seeking other people's reassurance? So many of us, we, we post it to a Facebook group and we.

Kind of want somebody else to make the decision for us. And you know, I don't think there's anything wrong inherently with posting a, a question in a Facebook group, should I use this logo or that logo? But at the end of the day, you have to like it. You have to be excited about it. You have to be excited to put that logo everywhere and asking a random person on Facebook, which logo makes more sense.

Maybe helpful, but also you can, you can ask yourself what makes most sense. One of my new favourite ways to practice self-trust around a decision in my practice. Is to flip a coin, and this sounds so strange, but bear with me, is to flip a coin and say, okay, side A, is this answer or heads is this answer tails is this answer.

And then when that coin lands, noticing how it feels in my body. If I was secretly hoping for the other one right then that helps me to go, oh, I actually do have a good idea of what I want to do, but I was waffling so much. But to flip a coin and go, oh, that is exactly what I wanted to in the first place, where to go, oh, I was actually really hoping for the other outcome.

We can kind of elicit our own self-trust through doing something like that versus posting it on on a random website and having random people who don't know you, tell you what color you they like better. Mm-hmm.

Jane: Who don't know you and don't know logos as well. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's that's brilliant piece of advice, isn't it?

It's so true. If, if you ever say to like, somebody, should I wear this dress or that one? And they go, you know, the first one, and you just think, oh, I mean, it just makes you realize just what you want. Yes,

Lindsay: absolutely. Absolutely. So we can start eliciting our own feedback to strengthen our self-trust and to strengthen our relationship with ourself.

Yeah.

Jane: Yeah. And I was, I was just thinking what you were saying there of what about what people see on their website and one of the things I suppose again, like you, I'm sorry if this hurts anyones feelings -. If you're listening to this and you're thinking, oh my God, my website says that, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. But a little bit of a bugbear me is when people say they provide a safe space.

Yes. And again, I can completely understand, but when you think that somebody's putting their hand in their pocket Hmm. They don't want to put their hand in their pocket to the tune of, you know, however much you are paying, they're paying you because they just want a safe space to talk. Mm-hmm. I think a part of this idea of saying that you are not the expert and not guaranteeing any outcomes, I think that needs looking at, because I think there's a difference between saying, Come to me and I'll help you and your depression will go mm-hmm.

And come with me and, you know, come and talk to me and I'll help to work. I'll, I'll, I'll work with you to help. I'm not saying it now, it's gone out of my head, but Yeah. Yeah. Rather than just saying, come to me and I'll, I'll make your depression go. It's more about Right. You know, I'm here and I'll help you and I'll do everything I can to work with you on to get the outcome that you want.

Mm-hmm. Because one is just a ridiculous idea and the other one is, Far better than just saying, come and have a chat with me in a safe space. You know, we need, right. We need, I think one of the ways that camps, this is one of my things actually, I've gotta get, get on my soapbox now. One of the things I think counsellors sometimes fall down on is they're very, very good at understanding what the current problems are that the person has when they come to counselling.

Mm-hmm. But I think that sometimes in their marketing, They're not really clear on what the ideal outcome is for that person. You know, what is it they really want? So if they're struggling with depression, What would be an ideal outcome? If they, yes. If they got to the point where they could be, do or have whatever it is that they, you know, wanted to, what would that look like?

Mm-hmm. What can they do? And the more that you can get really into that, so rather than have more confidence go a bit deeper, well more confidence to do what, what that actually look like. Yes. And then you can express that. Yes, through your website, through your market. And so people are saying, well, I'm not just going for a cozy chat.

I'm going cuz that's gonna help me to get to where I want to be. And this person seems to understand what I want. Mm-hmm.

Lindsay: I'm trying to not jump outta my seat because you're so right. You're so right. And I think this happens a lot when, when counsellors are struggling with how to market what the outcome or what a potential outcome of working with them is like.

A lot of, we, we ac, I actually find that I get language for my website from my initial session. Meaning when I ask my new clients, how would you know that you have accomplished what you need to accomplish with our work together so that we can be done? Right? I'm asking them right away, what are your goals?

Usually they say to me, I don't wanna be stressed about money. And then I have to say to them, What would not being stressed about money look like? What is the positive of that? And everybody's answer is going to be different, right? For some person, not being stressed about money means I would have saved X pounds so that I feel safe.

Or for somebody else, they would say, I want to be able to talk to my partner about money in a meaningful way. So those are the different things that we can put throughout our website to say. This is what may happen if we work together. So yes, we don't wanna feel depressed, but what does not feeling depressed look like to you?

Oh, for me, it means I would actually be able to sleep at night and I would be refreshed for other people, would be able to say, I would actually be able to engage with my kiddos and not feel like I would rather be scrolling on my phone. Right. Those are the very tangible. Tangible outcomes that we can help our clients to see, especially if a client is struggling with depression or anxiety or low self-esteem.

Most of them can't even imagine what life would be like without those symptoms. So we also need to be really clear in painting a picture of what life would look like without those symptoms.

Jane: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I just think this is such a powerful thing, and like I say, I think this is one of the ways that our training can hold us back.

Mm. Because it's, there's that worry that, well, I can't say that for definite this is gonna happen. Well, you can't, and you are never gonna be able to do that. But you are. That's not what you are saying. You're just saying that this is a possibility. Mm-hmm. There is the possibility, there is, and it's giving hope that there is something.

Yes. Something that is, oh, how do you put it? Something that they might sort of be able to see in their mind's eye. Yeah,

Lindsay: yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's a tangible outcome and therapists. Historically struggle with saying, if you work with me, you will feel X, Y, or Z. We know that that isn't true, but we can say some of my past clients have had these outcomes, or I can help you find your version of whatever.

Not being depressed looks like, but we have to be able to help our clients understand what they can do. Going back, Jane, to what you said, going to counselling in your twenties, you're like, I think I'm supposed to feel better question mark. Right? We want our clients to understand what it will, what it will be like to work with us and what they might be able to find in working with

Jane: us.

Yeah, absolutely. Another example I've got is I went to get some counselling. I've been to counselling so many times. I'm so

Lindsay: messed up. I dunno what to say. Same. Same. I go in and out all the

Jane: time. Cause our life changes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And I saw this guy and he was an older guy and he was in a tweed suit with like leather elbow patches.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I was young. I was still young at that point. Well, I'm still young now, obviously, but yes, and I can remember this guy was, and it's that, it's that situation where I know I'm absolutely positive that he was highly qualified and highly skilled and probably have loads and loads of experience.

He sat there looking like my granddad, and I was a young girl worried about various things that young girls got up to, and I did not feel comfortable talking with him. I felt very judged. He used words that I didn't understand, and I did used to say, sorry, can you tell me what that means? But after a while you feel really embarrassed and you just let it pass.

Right? And that, that's when, That's when being able to find the right, that's when your marketing can help you to find the right person. Mm-hmm. Because that person would be ideal for lots of people, but just not for me.

Lindsay: Mm-hmm. And I think we do this thing, or at least I'm noticing a lot of, the therapists and counsellors that I see is that they struggle to put up those.

Parameters and because they want to be for everyone, right? I don't wanna say I only work with millennials because then what if a Gen Z or a Gen X wants to work with me? Or I don't wanna say I only work with men because what if a woman wants to work with me, right? We struggle to paint, to create tho those barriers.

But I think, I just finished reading, Priya Parker's book, the Art of Gathering. Highly, highly Recommend it. It's all about how we bring people together in the meaning of being in community with others, but I'm, I'm paraphrasing now, but she essentially says, when you close the door to others, you create a sense of safety for those that are in the room.

And I think that is so beautiful. If we are really clear and we say, I only work. With Jen Xers, and I'm a specialist because I'm of that generation. I know what it's like and I'm, I'm uniquely qualified to help them. There may be a time or two where somebody who is a millennial says, I know you say you're just for Jen Xers, but everything you're saying is resonating with me.

Can you work with me? And you get to make the judgment and say, actually, yeah, you are my ideal client. You're a couple of years younger than I usually see, but come on in. Right? We, we are creating safety by being really clear about who's invited, and who is not.

Jane: I love that. I love that. I'm gonna have to make sure I find that quote and share it all over the place after I've put this out.

Lindsay: Yeah, yeah. It's really

Jane: special. Yeah. And I suppose one of the other things is, you know, I suppose we've touched on it, that feeling that we have to hide ourselves. Mm-hmm. Which just doesn't work in marketing. I mean, I'm not saying that you have to be out there doing lives all, I mean, you do it live, you do lives, you do meals.

You are very, very good at that. Thank you. Thank you. I don't, I, I don't do lives, but I am out there on social media. You are. You are. Mm-hmm. So I think it's, you know, it's, it's about finding. Your version of visible, visible, you know? Mm-hmm. By being visible, it doesn't mean that, you know, you have to listen to people who say you have to be on wheels.

You have to be on TikTok. Mm. Because I don't think you do. I think you find whichever is the, the thing that you like to do most.

Lindsay: Yes. Oh, yes, yes. Yeah. I call that, a congruence check-in. Is this particular way of marketing congruent with my values? Right? All marketing works, but we don't have to do all marketing.

Yeah, right. so I often ask, you know, is, is getting on Twitter and tweeting 12 times a day really in alignment with my value of having space to do meaningful work, probably not, or is cold messaging. 30 people that I went to university with, really in alignment with my values of a person's dignity and worth.

Probably not, but something that is in alignment with my values. Would be to put out a podcast because I value deep conversations and having space for nuance, right? That would be a marketing method that works for me because it's in alignment with my values and how I want to show up. So I think it's helpful to go, yes, all of these marketing methods, methods can work, but we certainly shouldn't be doing all of them, not just from, You know, a, a bandwidth perspective, but also because when we do this kind of scattershot marketing and we're doing a little bit of Facebook and a little bit of Instagram, and a little bit of podcasting and a little bit of blogging, we're doing a whole lot of nothing versus I'm going to write one keyword rich blog once per month for six months and see what happens.

That type of crystal clear marketing that works for you, that you know you can stick with, that won't burn you out. Will actually give us some really good data to say, oh, of these six blogs, these three topics really resonated and they went really well. I'm gonna do more blogs. Like those topics, right? We can actually gather data and gather feedback versus if we're doing a million things kind of not really at all.

Jane: Yeah, yeah. Well, I couldn't agree more. I mean, when, what happened, I've talked about this before. Sorry, lovely listener. If you've listened, if you've heard me say this before, but. You don't have to be on all the platforms. Just pick one. Just do it. Absolutely. Just do it. Well just learn it inside out and just do the best that you can on that one and you'll get far better results than trying to be on them all.

Definitely.

Lindsay: Yeah. Yeah. Especially if you don't like it, right? Like I'm not a Facebook person. So even if Facebook marketing quote unquote works for me, I would be irritated being on that platform. For many people, that's Instagram. For many people, that's TikTok. For many people, that's LinkedIn, right? We have to find the platforms where we like to hang out, and that's probably a good indicator that that's a place where we could market our practice.

Jane: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Self-trust. It's such a good phrase. Mm-hmm. I'm gonna just highlight it somewhere. Self-trust. Yeah. Yes. Can you think of any, any other way that, you know, our, our training might help make it more difficult to do our marketing?

Lindsay: Yeah. I think our training can make it more difficult to do our marketing be.

Because when we are starting out and throughout the course of our careers, we're supposed to get supervision, right? And supervision is a, an incredibly beneficial thing to say to a counsellor who's been in the field longer, Hey, I had this strange thing come up. This is how I responded. What do you think?

Right? We're often asking that. We're saying, tell me what I could do differently. What books do you recommend? Are there any other trainings that can help me with this thing? And, and that is powerful. I'm not saying we should stop supervision or stop doing our clinical and professional growth, but when we start out as clinicians constantly telling somebody, El constantly asking somebody else, tell me if what I'm doing is okay.

It creates this culture of second-guessing what it is that we want to do. So that culture of second-guessing then gets built into our marketing. Am I allowed to put a picture of myself on my website? Am I allowed to say I only work with this population? Is it right or is it wrong if I do a blog or if I do videos?

Right. We're constantly second-guessing, and that is really built-in with our training because I don't know about Eugene, but I had to do those awful. Those awful sessions where you're being watched from somebody else and you know, it is really beneficial to have somebody who's been in the field for a long time tell you where you could go better or where you could tweak your work.

But we're not an fishbowl any longer, right? So we, we don't have to be second guessing what we're doing with our marketing. We can start to trust ourselves to put on our marketing and, the feedback then that we can get doesn't have to be from other. Clinicians, it can be from our clients, right? Our client who says, oh, that blog post you put out on how to talk to your mother after having a tense relationship really resonated with me, and I'm so glad you put it out there.

That's how I found you. That tells us, oh, that really worked. That type of marketing worked and it resonated. We want our feedback to be. More from our clients and our, our potential clients than from other clinicians who are also being trained on second-guessing and not putting themselves out there.

Right. We need, we need a little bit of feedback from people outside of our field. Yeah. Yeah.

Jane: And that's, resonating is, is such an important word. I think that's, that's what we are aiming for in, on our, on everything really. But on our website, you know, you want people to land on your website and everything to resonate and say, this person really gets me.

Ow. And, you know, yeah, yeah. That's,

Lindsay: yeah. Yeah, yeah. We talk a lot about, our clients wanting to be seen. We want them to be seen before they even get into our therapy room. We want them to be seen in our marketing. We want them to go, oh, that sounds like me. That looks like me. Those are the problems that I have.

These are the things that I want to change. We want them to be seen in our marketing as

Jane: well. Yeah. And for me, That's when marketing gets to be fun. Yes. Because hundred percent you're talking about things that you feel passionately about. You are getting, doing things that you know are gonna help whether or not that person comes to you for therapy, you know that that's gonna help people that are reading it, you know?

Mm mm-hmm. That's when it feels really good. That's when marketing goes from just a horrible thing that you're forced to do, to be something that you can actually really enjoy doing. Right? Cuz you, you know that it's gonna be not just there as a big. You know, come to me for therapy, but it's gonna be out there just doing good for the world.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Does that sound like I'm a bit up myself? No, no,

Lindsay: no. I, I, I love, I love what you just said though, which is, We can help people outside of the therapy room and when we do our marketing correctly, we are helping people who may never seek out our services, especially with today's increasing kind of globalization.

Right? You, you're on a different continent than me and, and we found each other through the magic of podcasting and magic of the internet. I might not ever be, you know, over there working with you in that way, but you have still impacted me. and that's really special, right? So we also wanna think about, you know, there might be a single mom somewhere across the globe who can benefit from your blog or who can benefit from your podcast and whether or not they ever come work with you.

That is making a difference. But it only makes a difference if we're clear and specific about targeting that single mom. Yeah.

Jane: Yeah. Yeah. Brilliant. Mm-hmm. Oh, that's fantastic. Was, have you got anything else to add?

Lindsay: Ugh. I mean, I could talk about this for hours, but, but I would say, you know, I guess I would just kind of recap a few things because we, we've talked about so much, but I would say learning how to trust yourself takes time.

And our training really doesn't equip us to trust ourself. And, and it's not a bad thing. Our training is not a bad thing, but we have to start practicing. How can we do that check-in and know that it works for us. and then I would say getting comfy. Making these little marketing mistakes. I know counsellors don't wanna make mistakes, but when I say mistake, I mean maybe you pick the wrong colour for your logo, maybe use the wrong keywords for your blog.

It's not the end of the world. We can only change once we put it out there. It's kind of leading me to think about, I, I often tell therapists and counsellors to think about their marketing as an experiment, right? When we are doing experiments and when we're, when we're running them, we can only crunch the data that we have.

So you have to put out a blog post, you have to email, you have to go on LinkedIn or whatever your marketing is of choice. So then we can analyze that data and make more decisions moving forward that actually help to move the needle, and that also helps with that. That's spinning our wheels. Right? I am sure you have many counsellors say, oh, Jane, I'm trying all the things, and you're going, yeah, no wonder you're exhausted because you're doing all the things.

But again, if we can do one or two things really, really well, that gives us some good data to make some informed decisions about what's working.

Jane: Perfect. So self-trust is the thing. That's the word of the, that's the word of the day. Yes. Yes. Self-trust. I, I'm going with that. Yes. Oh, Lindsay, thank you so much for this, I always enjoy talking to you, but this subject is one that is so dear to my heart.

And we sit clearly. We clearly we're in each other's brains here cuz we are very aligned with how we feel about it by the sound of it. So it's been really lovely talking to you and I hope that the listeners have been, I've got something that they can go and think about, you know, that they can then, you know, maybe do a little bit of journaling about, about, you know, how much they do self-trust, how much they do, how much they are visible in their marketing, and maybe have a little bit of a thing, you know, do you spread yourself too thin?

Mm-hmm. And just have a think, you know, what is there from this podcast that might just help you, you know, go and have a little bit of a think about it.

Lindsay: Yeah, I, I love our chats too, Jane and I, I hope that this helps some, some counsellors as well to take some action. I would say that that can be the loving challenge we, we leave them with is to do a journaling exercise or to finally publish that blog post, but, You know, starting and, and publishing something can, can really help you to feel stronger in the type of work that you're meant to do.

Jane: Yeah, absolutely. Action is the antidote to fear. Oh, love it, love it, love it. Thank you, Lindsay. Thank you so much. Thank you, Jane.

__________________

I told you she's amazing, and I hope that this opens up an area for you to explore because the more comfortable you are with marketing, the more successful it's going to be. You know yourself. If you like doing something, you just naturally improve at it, don't you? Now I talked about, the podcast that Lindsay and I did in the past.

So that's episode 103 and it's called How to Cope with Financial Anxiety, and I'll put the link to that in the show notes, so you'll be able to go and have a little listen to that. So if you do struggle with issues around money and accepting money and having boundaries there, you know it's gonna really help you.

Now I really hope that this podcast helps you with self-trust and enables you to really lean into your marketing more so that you enjoy the process more.

So Thanks for listening to the Grow Your Private Practice Show. And if you've found value in this content, I'd be really grateful if you could share this podcast with your therapist, colleagues and friends. You know, we all know word of mouth can be a powerful way to spread the word and help me to reach more therapists who could benefit from this content.

So, you know, take a moment, tell your friends about the show and you know, invite them to tune in. You never know how much of an impact you can make. So, Thank you so much for your support and let's continue to grow together. Have a fabulous week.